The Liddell family moved to Oxford in 1856, and Alice met Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll), who encountered the Liddell family while photographing the cathedral on 25 April 1856. Carroll became a close friend of the Liddell family in subsequent years, and they became frequent models for Carroll’s photography. Carroll’s diary is still in preparation, but it is nearly twelve months since the legendary day when he first told the Alice story.
Alice, along with her sisters Edith and Lorina, first met Carroll on April 25, 1856, as he and a friend were setting up to photograph Christ Church Cathedral from the garden of the Dean’s. The two developed a close relationship when Carroll first visited Alice and her sisters at the Deanery of Christ Church in Oxford in 1862. Though information is scarce (Carroll’s diaries for the years 1858–1862 are missing), it does seem clear that Carroll’s friendship with the Liddell family began on a boat trip in Oxford on 4 July 1862, when he first told the “Alice” stories to Alice Liddell and her two sisters.
Carroll met the Liddell family in February 1856 during a train trip. Two months later, on 25 April, he met Alice during a photo session with his friend Reginals. Alice Liddell was almost five years old when she first met the mathematician Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, better known by his pen name Lewis Carroll. She lived at the Deanery of Christ Church, Oxford, and was the daughter of the Dean of Christ Church.
In conclusion, the Liddell family moved to Oxford in 1856, and Alice met Lewis Carroll while photographing the cathedral. Carroll became a close friend of the Liddell family, and their friendship is central to his life.
| Article | Description | Site |
|---|---|---|
| Lewis Carroll | Dodgson became close friends with Liddell’s wife, Lorina, and their children, particularly the three sisters Lorina, Edith, and Alice Liddell. He was widely … | en.wikipedia.org |
| Lewis Carroll’s Shifting Reputation | On a July afternoon in 1862, he took the three Liddell sisters on a stretch of the river between Oxford and Godstow and told them the story that would become … | smithsonianmag.com |
| Did Lewis Carroll have a real-life friendship with Alice … | The two developed a close relationship when Lewis Carroll first visited Alice and her sisters at the Deanery of Christ Church in Oxford in 1862. | quora.com |
📹 The Real Alice In Wonderland Lewis Carroll Had an Unusual Relationship With
You’re probably more likely to know Charles Lutwidge Dodgson as British author Lewis Carroll. He wrote Alice’s Adventures in …
What Words Did Lewis Carroll Invent?
Lewis Carroll, renowned for his whimsical literary contributions, notably coined several unique words, particularly portmanteau words, which blend parts of two different words. Among his well-known creations are "frumious," a mix of "fuming" and "furious," and "snark." Other inventive words include "chortle," combining "chuckle" and "snort," "galumph," and "frabjous." Carroll introduced many of these terms in his famous works, especially in the poem "Jabberwocky," originally part of "Through the Looking-Glass."
While Carroll invented numerous words, not all gained popularity, such as "brillig." His creativity extended beyond vocabulary; he also developed brain-teasers like the "doublet," which involves changing one word into another by altering one letter at a time. Carroll's literary prowess is highlighted in his playful explorations of language, as seen through the unique terms he created, many of which remain a part of the English lexicon today, despite competition from other literary figures like Shakespeare. His blend of humor and ingenuity has solidified his legacy as a master of invented language, captivating readers with his imaginative wordplay.
What Are Some Facts About Lewis Carroll'S Family?
Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, known as Lewis Carroll, was born on January 27, 1832, in Daresbury, Cheshire, England. He was the third child and eldest son of Rev. Charles Dodgson and Frances Jane Lutwidge, growing up amidst his 10 siblings in rural England. No stranger to literary creativity, Carroll became a celebrated author, mathematician, logician, Anglican deacon, and photographer. His most famous works, "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" (1865) and "Through the Looking-Glass" (1871), are cherished examples of literary nonsense.
Raised in a devout Anglican family, he later pursued clerical training at Oxford University's Christ Church, where he lived most of his life. Throughout his lifetime, Carroll faced personal challenges, including chronic migraines, epilepsy, stammering, partial deafness, and ADHD. Despite these difficulties, he maintained a joyful disposition, contributing both mathematical and literary works—over 11 books on mathematics and numerous literary texts.
His imaginative storytelling began in childhood, often entertaining family with creative tales. Carroll's family background consisted largely of conservative, high-church Anglicans with many relatives serving as army officers or clergy. Ultimately, Lewis Carroll remains a prominent figure in literature and education, intertwining mathematical rigor with whimsical storytelling.
Who Was Lewis Carroll Friends With?
Lewis Carroll, born Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, forged notable friendships throughout his life, particularly with artistic figures like Dante Gabriel Rossetti and John Everett Millais, and was significant in the realms of literature and photography. He met John Ruskin in 1857 and became close with Rossetti around 1863, often capturing the Rossetti family in their Chelsea garden. Despite differences with J. R. R. Tolkien regarding curriculum methods, Lewis joined Tolkien's study group, Kolbítar, focused on Old Norse.
His connections to the Liddell family began in Oxford, where he befriended Alice Liddell, the dean's daughter, engaging her and her siblings with imaginative stories. Alice’s relationship with Carroll has been scrutinized, with some literary scholars suggesting a deep infatuation on his part, marked by a darker subtext within his celebrated work, "Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland." Carroll also maintained relationships with the Hatch and Drury sisters, whom he met during his travels.
His engagement with youth, alongside friendships with adults, formed a significant part of his social life. Eventually, however, his friendship with Tolkien deteriorated, especially after he left his Oxford job for a chair at another institution. Carroll's life intertwined with many young girls, who often inspired his storytelling, sparking debates around his intentions and the nature of his friendships. Carroll, alongside his literary accomplishments, was also an Anglican deacon, leaving behind a complex legacy in both literature and personal relationships.
Did Lewis Carroll Believe In God?
Lewis Carroll, a deacon in the Church of England, deeply cherished his faith in Christ and belief in a loving God, which were central to his life. Despite his significance as the author of the Alice books, little scholarly focus has been placed on the role of faith in his work. Carroll maintained strong convictions about decency and reverence, disapproving of casual or irreverent references to God and refusing to participate in theatrical performances that seemed disrespectful.
The limited exploration of Carroll's Christian beliefs is particularly noteworthy given his influence on subsequent authors like C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien. Lewis's correspondence reveals no mention of how faith impacted his relationships or his experiences surrounding his father's death. Prior to studying at Oxford, Lewis engaged in debates about Christianity, even as a recent convert to atheism. Carroll, also known as Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, balanced his imaginative literary work with his mathematical pursuits at Christ Church College, Oxford University.
Unlike Lewis, who later became a prominent Christian apologist, Carroll’s deep spirituality informed his relationships and diverse interests, including photography and theater. He believed in the value of scripture, though not necessarily an inflexible interpretation of the Bible. Carroll’s religious upbringing shaped his worldview, as reflected in his writings. A new examination of Dodgson's beliefs highlights that his faith strongly influenced every aspect of his life, suggesting that his literary creativity was intertwined with his spiritual convictions.
Did Lewis Carroll Ever Marry?
Lewis Carroll, born Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, never married or had children, a fact concealed by his family upon their publication of his letters, which left his sexuality ambiguous for nearly a century. Recent assessments suggest he was a confirmed bachelor who preferred relationships with women, both single and married. Carroll, who is best known for "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland," considered marriage but ultimately chose to remain unmarried due to the fellowship’s restrictions, which also led to his pseudonym being created.
He was a talented mathematician, logician, photographer, and novelist, with a notable academic career at Christ Church, Oxford. He had a particularly close connection with Alice Liddell, the inspiration for his famous character, but he did not pursue romantic involvement with her. Notably, the character of the Red Queen is reportedly based on Mary Prickett, who had a stern demeanor towards children.
Carroll's life took a path marked by celibacy, as he lived out his days as a bachelor, never formally ordained due to his avoidance of the vow of celibacy. He passed away just shy of his 66th birthday in 1898. Carroll's legacy is intricately tied to his imaginative literature, despite the misconceptions about his personal life and relationships.
Who Inspired Lewis Carroll?
Alice Pleasance Liddell (1852 – 1934) was the young girl who inspired Lewis Carroll to create Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass. Later known as Alice Hargreaves, she became a society hostess in Lyndhurst. Carroll, whose real name was Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, was influenced by various interests including childhood experiences, mathematics, photography, and the children he knew, particularly the Liddell sisters. While he consistently denied that the characters in his works were based on real individuals, Liddell was indeed a close friend of Carroll and served as the inspiration for his titular character.
Alice, at the age of ten, met Dodgson during a family visit to Oxford, where he was a mathematics lecturer. He entertained Alice and her siblings with fantastical tales. In 1865, he published Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, detailing a magical journey through a fantastical realm. A century later, the relationship between Carroll and Liddell has been explored, often casting a darker shadow over the whimsical narrative.
Despite their deep bond, the true nature of their friendship remains complex. Liddell’s contributions to literature endure, marking her as the muse behind one of the most famous stories in children's literature.
When Did Lewis Carroll Meet Alice Liddell?
On April 25, 1856, Alice Liddell, along with her sisters Edith and Lorina, first met Lewis Carroll, whose real name was Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, while he was setting up to photograph Christ Church Cathedral. The Liddell family had recently moved to Oxford, where Alice's father became the Dean. Over the years, Carroll established a close friendship with the family. Carroll, an aspiring photographer and later a mathematics lecturer at Christ Church, was significantly influenced by Alice, particularly her curiosity and perceptive nature.
In July 1862, during a boating trip with Alice and her sisters, Carroll invented the story that would become "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland," which Alice requested he write down later. On November 26, 1864, he presented her with a manuscript of the tale. Alice, born in 1852, became his muse, inspiring not only "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland" but also "Through the Looking Glass." Carroll's unique storytelling style and Alice's playful spirit formed the foundation of these beloved classics. They maintained a friendship over the years, culminating in Alice being invited to an exhibition in 1932 to honor Carroll’s legacy, receiving an honorary doctorate from Columbia University.
Where Is Alice Liddell Buried?
Alice Pleasance Liddell, known as Mrs. Reginald Hargreaves, was born on May 4, 1852, and passed away on November 16, 1934. She is famously recognized as the inspiration for Lewis Carroll's classic "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland." After her death, Alice was cremated at Golders Green Crematorium, and her ashes were interred in the graveyard of the Church of St Michael and All Angels in Lyndhurst, Hampshire. This site holds significance as both a place of worship and a burial ground for notable figures, including the mother of the boys who were christened there.
Alice, the daughter of Dean Henry Liddell of Christ Church College, met Carroll during her childhood, which sparked the creation of the beloved character. Although the family home, Cuffnells, has been demolished, the village seeks to honor Alice’s legacy. A memorial plaque commemorates her resting place in the churchyard, which is reportedly in poor condition and requires maintenance. In recent years, local efforts have emerged to preserve the memory of one of Lyndhurst's most famous residents, reflecting on her life and its impact on literature and culture.
How Old Was Alice Liddell When She Died?
Alice Pleasance Liddell (1852–1934) was the middle daughter of Henry George Liddell, Dean of Christ Church, Oxford. Known to the world as Alice in Wonderland, she was the inspiration behind Lewis Carroll's renowned stories. Alice met Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, Carroll's real name, when she was nearly five years old. Their connection led to many cherished memories, although some of the pages from their early exchanges have since been destroyed.
Throughout her life, Alice Liddell had to navigate the fame and expectations attached to her identity as the heroine of Carroll’s tales. She lived at Christ Church College during her childhood and became a photography subject for several artists, including Julia Margaret Cameron. Tragically, in 1876, her sister Edith died just before her wedding, which greatly affected the family.
Alice married Reginald Hargreaves, and they traveled through Europe together. Despite her passing on November 16, 1934, at the age of 82 in Westerham, Kent, her legacy as the beloved Alice endures. Following her death, tributes highlighted her significance and the lasting impact of Carroll’s imaginative works.
Alice Liddell's life was deeply intertwined with literature, sustaining her status as an iconic figure in English literary history.
📹 The Controversial Genius Behind Alice In Wonderland The Secret World Of Lewis Carroll Timeline
ALICE IN WONDERLAND is said to be the most quoted book in print, second only to The Bible, with a passionate army of fans …
While I hate the idea that men cannot have an innocent friendship with a child, I wouldn’t be comfortable with that man having such an obsessive connection to my daughter. When she was 4 my daughter struck up a friendship with an elderly man down the street. He was a widower, without children, and just doted on both my daughter and her twin brother. He would sometimes babysit for us, telling them outlandish stories about his time in the merchant navy, as a train conductor and about his late wife and her horses. But I never once got a strange feeling from him. Lewis Carroll, on the other hand, gives me creep vibes right through the screen. As for the nude photos, I must confess some of my favourite snaps of the kids are them in the bath, with bubbles on their heads. When they were toddlers a man came to our front door to complain they were naked, running under the sprinkler in the yard. He said it was obscene! My husband told him if he looked at a 3 year old and saw something sexual he was a pervert and wasn’t welcome in our neighbourhood. What kind of person sees something obscene in the nakedness of a 3yo?
I’ve read ‘Alice in Wonderland’ countless times as a child (the original ver), and it always spooked me to no end. I never bothered to do research on Lewis Carroll, but just by reading his works, one could get a pretty good grasp on how creepy and sick his mind was. Now some folks believe that he wrote these stories while he was high, and I agree with that statement. Plus, pedophilia and indulging in child nudity is NEVER okay, no matter the era.
I think the relationships with young girls were unhealthy even for that time period. I think he used his photography as a means to be with them and lust after their bodies. Pedophilia may have not been a consideration in that time period because of his job, but that does not mean it did not exist and Alice’s discomfort with the guy would be a big red flag in this day and age. But these are just my thoughts and opinions. I have never liked Alice and the Adventures in wonderland. It is a very strange story and that is the American version dubbed down for audiences. The original version is much creepier which has made people speculate whether or not he was on drugs of some sort. We have no proof so we can leave that to speculation but none the less the story is to creepy for my convictions.
I have a bunch of books on Roman history from the 1800s authored by Alice’s father Henry D Liddell. The books are titled “A History of Rome: The students series” copyright 1872. When I bought them for 2$ each I had no clue that the author was the real Alice’s father. I wonder what Henry Liddell thought about his daughter and Carroll’s relationship.
Actually there is some proof of his indecent child loving ways. I watched a documentary in which they found a portrait of a topless young teenage girl with budding breasts. This picture is said to be older than what was appropriate even in that time period. The topless girl in the picture is Alice’s sister.
People who do not have children of their own, but love children, often want to have a friendship with them as in an uncle or an aunt role. I think in our days of awareness of child predators, we have become hypercritical to the point of demonizing childless people, especially men. We need to be vigilant, but we shouldn’t automatically assume the worst of everyone.
I remember perusal the Great Book series on TLC when they still did educational stuff. They did touch on his questionable nature of being with girls, but they described his relations with them a constrained “perhaps too much” if I got it right. One book about famous celibates claimed one of the girls he was intimate with laughed off the notion he was improper with them. I also heard that he supposedly had a relationship with a certain maid of a particular household, how old she was I didn’t hear.
Personally, I like to compare Lewis Carol to J.M. Barrie. They both wrote books for their child friends/muses (Alice Liddle for Carol and Peter Llewelyn Davies for Barrie aka “Peter Pan”); displayed infantilised behaviour for men of their ages; preferred the company of children to that of adults; and despite their fascination with childhood (which was deemed appropriate for Victorian England) they are viewed with suspicion in the modern world despite there being zero evidence that both parties ever hurt any child whatsoever.
It’s kind of funny that the most dark sides of his personality ended up inspiring the art that caused the most societal impact. However you want to look at his life, the story and feelings he expresses in his stories clearly attempt to reconnect young women with the concept of our dream-like experience of life, how even queens can be both good and evil, and how sometimes the one that knows the most about us appears the most mad, especially when he’s trying to properly hat our enormous heads. But like any myth, the true story is always more depressing, perverse, and ultimately rejected by the very people we try to write about. Not everyone is comfortable with experiencing the full range of human emotions.
“There’s no evidence to suggest he ever harmed any of (the children)” – plus – Alice was able to spurn him and have a decent life although she carried the burden of having a book named after here . . . – equals – not creepy. Kids who receive love and affection & not molestation, and then are able to freely disband the proceedings . . . have had the best of things, maybe.
” Now at the very end of our long list I introduce you to two books of which I think you must have already tasted: Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland, and the eighth is Alice Through the Looking Glass. Both are nonserious, that’s why I love them. Both are written for children, that’s why I immensely respect them. Both are full of beauty, grandeur, mystery and small parables which can be understood on many many levels. I have always loved one parable, for example…. Alice comes to the King – or perhaps it was the Queen, it does not matter – and the King asks Alice, “Did you meet my messenger coming towards me on the way?” Alice says, “I met nobody, sir.” The King then says, “Then he must have reached here by now.” Alice could not believe her ears, but just out of respect, amazed, Alice still remained silent, quite an English lady. Alice must have been a perfect English lady. Out of formality she did not even giggle. She had said that she had met nobody, and the King thinks that she had met somebody called Nobody. My God, he thinks that Nobody is a man, that Nobody is somebody…! Again Alice says, “Sir, did I not tell you that I met nobody? Nobody is nobody!” The King laughed and said, “Yes, of course nobody is nobody, but why has he not arrived yet?” Such beautiful small parables in both the books, Alice in Wonderland and Alice Through the Looking Glass. And the most strange fact to remember is that Lewis Carroll was not the real name…because he was a mathematician and a schoolmaster; hence he used a pseudo-name.
The usual exaggerated take on Dodgson’s imagined proclivities, most of which has been adequately refuted again and again. The truth is, we do not know and, in fact, cannot know that these post-Freudian allegations have any substance. Yes, Dodgson was an eccentric who enjoyed the company of young girls and — not mentioned here at all — grown women. The majority of his young female friends continued a friendship with him throughout their lives, well into their adult years (also unmentioned here), and not one of them ever accused him of impropriety. And Dodgson had a number of close male friends who shared his photographic interests but certainly were not sexually attracted to young girls. So, no, Dodgson was not a pedophile. He never even met privately with any of his young friends — they were always chaperoned at his request. There’s no evidence of sexual behavior or “grooming” on his part at all (indeed, the very idea would have horrified him — one thing we do know from his journals is that he was a prude). Neither the photographed nudes nor the common florid language used to express affection in Victorian times can be seen as evidence of pedophilia. Nor can his recorded inner wrestlings with “sinful thoughts,” since we have not one scrap of information indicating what he was referring to. In our day, we assume that it must have been sexual in nature, and it’s not ridiculous to think it was. But what the actual nature of his struggles may have been, we simply do not know (it was rumored, actually, that he was smitten by the Liddell sisters’ fully grown governess, and for all we know she may have “gotten under his skin” in his private thoughts).
This is a clear example of the “Death of the Auteur” movement, because nobody is “cancelling” Lewis Carroll or demanding that his books be removed from school’ curricula or public libraries. Perhaps it is because it happened such a long time ago, while current writers and artists are being treated with a different set of standards, and their works of art are being also repudiated.
That last point about lewis mentioning something about alice changing in some way around the age of 12 may have been another red flag. Maybe she was told of the hypothetical proposal, or maybe she was starting to grow and his interest was waning. I have heard about that from every woman i ever dated that was assaulted by an uncle or something. Sometimes you reach a certain age and the interest goes away. Other times it doesnt. Carrol sounds like a first-ballot hall-of-fame predator. He hits on every cylinder: raises all the major red flags. And i think you being super generous with the page being about a proposal. Look at alices eyes in that last photo. She looks like a ww1 vet. He did something to her.
There’s situations where some stranger leaves a basket on your doorstep and dissappears into the night. You open the door feeling curious about what’s in that particular basket and why it’s on your doorstep. You open the basket and see a precious little bundle of joy wrapped in a blanket and the first thing on your mind is to bring the child inside so that it doesn’t catch a cold. You sit there and wonder if you should call the police or child services and let it be someone else’s problem, but it’s too late… Every First thought in your mind tells you that it has no home, and it might not fare well in an orphanage so you decide that from here on out that it’s now your child to raise and do the best damn job as a parent you can ever do. That’s an acceptable form of relationship a grown person can have with little kids, by seeing them and treating them as if they’re your own children, or simply befriending them as they’re alone and need a friend they can turn to when they’re in trouble or are sad and need you to make them laugh… Anything other than that is creepy AF and just makes me feel like vomiting in the most vile fashion
I’m researching my family’s history to all sides. In most branches in at least down to 1800, in some down to 1690. However, until the 1900 is interesting to note, that most females at the time of Dodgson were barely 18, when getting married and having children. Some were as young as 15. Now, I have no further historical education or knowledge, but I’m wondering if relationships back then were just forming earlier? After all, the average life expectancy was 62 years and most people started working at age 13/14. That being said, 11 was surely unusual even back then. Sometimes I’d love to be able to look into a magnifying glass into the past, just to get answers.
Can you do a article on dark sides to kids movies like Peter Pan, monsters inc, and so forth or a article on certain war tribes of Africa or certain parts of the world that’s restricted or still to be explored. Maybe even a article on outerspace discoveries, or a article on what life was like in a Jewish ghetto or living as a white or black in the early 1900’s as far as racial profiling or living wise.
Lorina was the elder daughter. . “In 1996, Karoline Leach found what became known as the “Cut pages in diary” document — a note allegedly written by Charles Dodgson’s niece, Violet Dodgson, summarizing the missing page from 27–29 June 1863, apparently written before she (or her sister Menella) removed the page. The note reads: “L.C. learns from Mrs. Liddell that he is supposed to be using the children as a means of paying court to the governess — he is also supposed soon to be courting Ina””. (Leach, 1999)
Yeahhh some of that comes off pretty creepy but who knows…times were very different then and he may have meant no implied sexuality in his letters and photos. Similar to how it was once normal for men to write what would today be construed as love letters to one another when they were nothing more than men expressing admiration and platonic love for one another..something that in our supposedly “progressive” society is still seen as strange unless between 2 gay lovers.
I have never been able to get into Alice in wonderland and people think it’s odd because I’m instantly pegged as the “target audience” as in I like weird abstract and funny things… 😕but I don’t know it just was always a weird story to me but not in an alluring way …as I got older I decided to look into it because I wanted to know the story behind the story ….😟 then it all started to make sense … it is also rumored that after he died he left instructions for his family to burn parts of his journal and some of his letters to Alice but I don’t think that has ever been 100% confirmed as a fact …but it is not entirely an unbelievable rumor and if someone is as questionable as this guy I feel like it is pretty obvious that he was… well a sicko 😟 Edit: I guess it’s not so much a rumor, on Lewis Carroll biography spark notes it says, Mrs.Liddell burned all of his early letters to Alice. And Carroll tore out pages of his journal related to their falling out
You can’t major in English and not know this or other strange things about writer’s, many were quite odd for thier time. Was he creepy yup, was he perving on those kids yup, do we have proof of him acting on his perversion no, but considering the year the family would not want such a thing to get out if they found out which is why the page is missing. But will say that look on Alice’s face was of pure disdain
It is possible he enjoyed kids. And wanted to perfect a story from youth. In the end he may have fell in love with his version of Alice in the stories, but realized Alice when she turned 12 was not the same as he wrote about. Most likely leading to him being upset and writing about it and it being take out of his diary.
That 8:54 “no matter what century you’re in” Well,not really. Around the world, people got married no matter what age before industrial revolution gave children free education. By the time the education was over, the person was considered as an “adult”. Before; craftsmen, merchants, and even doctors usually started apprenticeship at the age of 12.
Whatever the situation, at least he didn’t act on his “inappropriate feelings.” Maybe he just admired the beauty and vivaciousness of young girls! We’ll never know for sure. What we do know is that he was a genius who never ended up in prison. Since we’re talking about the possible exploitation of young girls, isn’t it curious that the public never seemed to notice the early sexualization of Brooke Shields, Miley Cyrus, Britney Spears, the Jenner girls and others? No one’s ever been held accountable for their exploitation and ensuing influence over generations of young people! “Curiouser and curiouser!”
On the one hand, I too wonder if there wasn’t an inappropriate relationship. On the other, I cannot always agree on the facial expressions seen in photographs taken then – especially since those were taken more posed and far less spontaneous than they were today. Even for a camera aficionado, pictures were special, and not as convenient as those taken by cell phone today.
Okay but he wasn’t a pedophile This was In the 1800’s and values were very different As the uploader said It was common to send undressed photos of children as a form of purity As for the things he said to her I don’t think there was anything sexual kind of like how some girls would fangirl over a celebrity, he was Just play-flirty with them If that makes sense Again, different values and ways of life
In Dodgeson’s time, there was no such thing as “mental health”. Seen the descriptions of him, we most likely can diagnose him with autism. He had a stutter too, and was very insecure around people his own age. That’s most likely the reason he found it easier to relate to children, as he was himself childlike. There was proof, a diary entry or letter, of him asking a grown woman’s hand in marriage. Too bad that’s never talked about in these types of docu’s only for sensation…
I find it amusing that people are so keen to tiptoe around this subject and attempt all sorts of mental gymnastics to find a conclusion other than the obvious: Lewis Carroll was a paedophile in the literal sense of the word. It doesn’t diminish the brilliance of his works or lessen him as a person. There’s simply no evidence to suggest he ever molested any of the girls he fixated on, but he was clearly infatuated with prepubescent girls.
A part of me wonders if he was autistic who was extremely gifted in mathematics and storytelling. It crossed my mind after a recent experience. Not only a lot of awkwardness, but there are unusual ways autistics develop to cope with the world. And yes, the way they approach sexual stuff is not always in a comfortable fashion. Some of their behaviors can come off quite creepy. It may have been exaggerated since those issues really weren’t dealt with back then. Fortunately, the resources available for autistic kids to learn how to cope with the world have greatly improved.
Sorry for posting it here, but have no choice – here, in Ukraine, we desperately need help. Thought, you might help to spread information🙏🙏🙏🙏 This information will not appear on russian media. Russian goverment does not want their people to know the truth. But they have to know! Russia bloks any real information from Ukraine, so lets help russian people to know the truth!!! They say “there is no losses”? Here is reality. Losses of Russia at third day of war: Solgers dead – more than 4000 Solgiers captured – more than 200 Aircraft – 27 Helicopters – 26 Tanks – 146 Cannons – 49 Armored personal Carriers – more than 700 Military vehicles – more than 30 People of Russia! We dont want this war! We did not start it! But we have to defend our country and our people. Our solgers dont attack those, who surrenders! Captured solgers are treated well, they have a good food, warm shelter, medical help. Please, help your children and loved ones to save their lives! Call them, tell them to stop, drop their weapon and surrender🙏🙏🙏 Give them chance to stay alive!!! Эту информацию не сообщат в российских медиа. Ваше правительство не хочет, чтобы вы знали правду. Но вы должны её знать. Они говорят вам “потерь нет”? Но они есть. И вы должны об этом знать! За трое суток войны, российские войска потеряли: Личного состава – более 4000 погибли, более 200 в плену Самолётов – 27 Вертолетов – 26 Танков – 146 Пушек – 49 БТР различных типов – более 700 Народ России!
The answer, yes but the article guiding the viewer to a conclusion shouldn’t be the goal. The fact that a lot of his behavior was considered “normal” at the time speaks to a lot of the aspects of society we can’t look to harshly at George Washington being against slavery saying “it would phase out eventually” while only promising freedom after his whole family was buried …. Pretty bullshit Or our forefathers marrying 13 year olds. But we don’t have the proof of him doing anything to Alice and its something lost to history but providing context for the viewer should be the goal. You might as well put “he was a Pedo” in the title if that was the goal
I am a male and I’m a father. I think 90% of males back then would find anything to put it in! Mysons great grandmother was 13 when she married her husband who was 21 she had all of her three kids before the age of 17! They say it wasn’t OK back then but they “dealt with it” by saying nothing. This Still happens till this day! 🤮!
One thing to keep in mind, it can be problematic to try to judge someone’s behavior by modern standards. Concepts we take for granted, nowadays didn’t exist back then. Lewis Carol, and many others, up until the mid 20th century just didn’t know any better. I do suspect he did harm some of the kids, after all, he made CP, but, like I said, he wouldn’t have known better, and such laws would probably be over a century away.
He reminds me of my aunt. She is also a very serious perfectionist, a retired now, music teacher who has a love-hate relationship with music. Over the years she delighted in the progress of her pupils, had a wonderful “relationship” with each one of them. She took pictures with them and put it on fb. No harm was done. Nothing sinister. If my aunt was a man in the Victorian Era who loved photography, she might have taken pictures of her pupils by the piano, but she would probably dress them up as angels, not in the nude as nude pictures of children were seen as purity and nothing else. Remember he was also a teacher. It is common for teachers to “fall in love” with their bright students aka teacher’s pet. We all know that our teachers had a teacher’s pet, or maybe we were the teacher’s pet. I suspect that Alice was Dodgeson’s “teacher’s pet” and nothing more.
Was it that rare for peasant folks to sell/marry daughters off at age 12? I’m sure more affluent folks were more weary of doing this because they weren’t so desperate. I figured from perusal movies and such that 13ish would be the age an older male could start courting a girl from a wealthy family to marry her by age 16ish. But it’s still creepy. Rich guys like princes could prob approach any family and ask to be betrothed to their daughter and as long as she was moving into a castle, the family would oblige.
It’s impossible to make meaningful value judgments regarding Charles Dodgson with the mindset common to that of 2022. No one, even historians, can shed every element and influence of their lifetime and actually FEEL what it was like to be alive 150 years ago. At best, historical interpretations of lifestyle and morals are projections predicated on what the norm ia today. 150 years from now, what will people assume about us? especially with regard to behaviors and beliefs across the past two years?
Their relationship to answer the final question was Creepormal 🙂 meaning in my made up mind creepy for us but very normal for back then back then grown men and into the 20th century were with preteens and very young teens and in love with them especially overseas in other countries and in the Southern USA just look at Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis England like our fellow in this story Charle Chaplin and so many others had things for the younger gals. Today it’s cuffs then for what ever reason while frowned upon by many it was practiced by many!
This has been my lifelong favorite book. I turn to it in dark times. I refuse to add Pedo stuff in my head Lewis Carroll’s relationship with Alice. If he was a Pedo, at least it seems he never acted upon those feelings. That’s good enough for me. Though Pedophilia is reviled(and should be), I’ve always believed it should be studied enough to at least form a definitive understanding of ‘why’. I hope we have people on the job doing that as I type. It’s not cool, never should be, but I’d like to hope there’s a way to treat it one day other than just restraint, and an understanding about it.
Classic tortured artist who turns pain into creativity. Coming up with that story in that time period must mean he was in A LOT of pain. In that way I pity him, and feel bad for him. If he was alive today he’d have a field day with the shit kids upload to the internet, and I bet I can guess what his favorite emoji would be.
In the landscape of how creepy this is, it’s interesting and important that Alice Liddell never had a bad word to say about Carroll. Which poses a mystery: typically survivors of pedophilia despise their perpetrators. But they may for any reason not realize it, not want to say it, etc. Regardless, that missing page and sudden shift in the relationship doesn’t bode well. And taking nude photos of kids, while a popular art form at the time, is really questionable when the parent isn’t fully welcome. Carroll’s reticence could have been just dislike of that one particular mother but…yeah, if other people aren’t fully encouraged to be present, that’s not good.
I was irked by your sarcastic, “then there’s this one” comment @ 1:20 about Jan Svankmajer’s film, “Alice”. IMHO it is an excellent portrayal of Lewis’s story, and its in keeping with its surrealistic & bizarre elements. You seemed to be more fixated on innuendo about his relationships with children…, if you can’t understand all of this I’d be happy to explain it to you; providing that you watch “Alice”.
Sometimes you meet someone who inspires you to write a story about them,,,,,I’m not different but the woman I write about is of age and no a child, She a women from the Nederlands who plays a vampire,,My version of a vampire in Wonderland She is no Alice, Is the Alice in Wonderland creep,,up to a point, stalking the girls is creepy, . But keeping away from said subject or not knowing them is the best idea .
I’ve never watched Alice in Wonderland and have always had a blockage about perusal the movie, which I now find strange. Most definitely creepy vibes. Yes, it was a different era, but most men of his time didn’t surround themselves with young girls, which is why his behavior stood out then and it stands out now.
Victorians were obsessed with innocence. This was a time when infant mortality was high, lots of kids died of diseases, and many had to work dangerous menial jobs to help support their families. Working class peope didn’t really get to have childhoods. I don’t think it’s out of line for the times to cherish children and almost live vicariously through them. I would like to think Dodgson was being merely sentimental.
How about going to L. Frank Baum next? H.P. Lovecraft gets a lot of flak for his mild (even for the times) racism but the very reason we have “The Wizard of Oz” and 14 such novels was a lifetime passion for Genocide against the Native Americans. Baum had published constant calls for a “Final Solution” – likely was the man that coined the term – against remaining Native Americans and when his paper went bankrupt he published Wizard of Oz for money. It did quite well and he’d have been set for life but he went bankrupt and self-publishing pamphlets calling for genocide was part of it. He kept writing Oz novels, selling movie rights, etc. till he died at number 14. Serious – google “L. Frank Baum Genocide” – its all over in the open. Yet they want to ‘cancel’ rather keep making MONEY but edit out HP Lovecraft… Same bleating “Fashionably Radical” woke types LOVE the Wizard of Oz, probably the ONLY book they read outside of the debt factory (college) and didn’t use Cliff Notes to sleep through. My own lifetime I remember some Native Americans wanting to stage a protest at one of the ‘re-releases’ of Wizard of Oz. Mayor and Governor said they’d send in the National Guard under “Indian Rebellion act” or something and either shoot them all dead or take them away for 20 years hard labor via military trial. And they weren’t going to block, just hand out pamphlets on L Frank Baum not demanding people not see it or like it but asking for donations to charities. He’d done pamphlets for decades calling for genocide – but also to use Jury Nullification to allow ANY crime against them and that did lead to it being nearly impossible for any of them to get justice or avoid a conviction if in court.
Yes, creepy by today’s standards, but when dealing with historical accounts, you need to try look at them through eyes of those times, and for those times it may not have been perceived as creepy. Add to it the fact that some of what was said about him is rumor and conjecture that needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Seems like Dodgson may have had an unusual relationship with these children. I think it would look relatively normal and harmless but he may have had other unwanted thoughts he fought with but new they were wrong. His relationships seem off putting but not necessarily harmful or wrong just unusual. Like they were 85% normal, but u can’t help but ignore that 15% that is nearing pedophilia but not quite.
He would have be made to stay more than 1000 ft from schools, daycares, Disney World … ironic, as Disney owns the rights to Alice … for less now a days. His photos alone would get him 30 to life. There are those that, truly prefer, without anything icky going on, … prefer the company of children. Generally, their EQ is quite low. They themselves stop growing emotionally in their own childhood, for whatever reason. So there’s usually a nexus for the behavior. M Jackson was a prime example, of an emotional child, in a man’s body. Most likely due to his maltreatment by his father
5:40 we find Dodgson’s Secret Purpose – being in love and unutterable – he found and websiteed this lost love through stories. I admit I have done the same – an entire year of hours a day it seems – but without the actual company of children found through a commerciality of the sort – I hadn’t the secret purpose I thought – or something. I think the story must be archetypal – what child does not dream of such human terrors and friendly sprites and the occasional Mad Hatter? It must have seemed like a gift of one’s soul itself tidily gathered in a cereal bowl for delight of milk and sugar. How I wanted to share that – but I moved on.
The click bait title coupled with the snarky narrator is a typical “modern” device which is used to drum up controversy and thus more views. Annoying and one really has to wonder what kind of lives the highly suspicious minds whingeing on about their mental process have to do with our disgruntled society.
Prospective, prospective, prospective! Follow the narrator like a book and you are swayed into their narrative. In another vein, while it is disgusting with our modern sensibilities, what is normal then isn’t now and vice versa. Look upon the past with a temperate head, temperate heart and a giant lens of common sense.
Yep he was a molester in his mind or other wise. I read when he and sibblings were young they lived away from people in the country and didn’t have many friends. Not sure if that was the problem just thought I would try to understand that dastardly mind of his … that movie cartoon made me physically ill when I was a child … off with her head and complete insanity of it. Maybe he gave her pills … I hope not it is very sad when children are abused. God said it was better to have a meal stone tied around your neck and be cast in the deepest ocean than hurt one of His … In so many words. I think he never really grew up but he was wiser than these poor children, he knew better.
Back in Victorian England the age of consent was actually 12 ….Marriage with parental consent was also 12 (boys 14)…So when you think about it like that, I don’t think in that day & age he was doing anything morally wrong for the times Now in 2022 UK, the age of consent is 16 & we don’t turn a hair about that…So I’m sure the people of the time also didn’t when it was 12. LUCKILY times change.